Please note that I have made no attempt to verify the accuracy of any of the information here. I've made these comments available as a service to GPL racers.
by Steve Blankenship
While not perfect, it's much better than the other wheels I've had. More accurate, more reliable, looks better, feels better. For reference, I've been using a TM GP1(modified for 270deg. w/stiffer bungee) with CH pedals (w/a racquet ball duct-taped behind the brake pedal). I've tried, used and returned a Nascar Pro, a Nascar SuperSport, and a Saitek R4, because they all had too many problems/glitches or were just not as good as what I already had.
The wheel unit's great; good ergonomics, easy-to-reach shift paddles, solid clamps, nice looks, grippy rim, the works. The wheel size and angle are very close to the GP1, which I prefer to the new low-rider TM wheels, and the base footprint is even smaller. It uses a steel steerer/plastic bushing setup with dual return springs (one per side). The stock resistance is close to the SuperSport's; a bit less than older TM wheels, and very smooth. However, it only has about 190 degrees of rotation. I didn't think that sufficient for GPL, but then I gather that's preference. I ended up removing the two stops and replacing them with a single one at 12 o'clock, giving about 270 degrees, and also relocated the spring mounting bolts to increase the centering tension. I prefer a pretty heavy wheel though; I've always kept a stout bungee in my GP1. And while it may not be quite Momo-spec, just knowing that drilled-out Campagnolo chainring bolt (my new stop) is in there just makes me feel better. Forza Italia!
The Logitech Profiler software is nice, allowing you to map different functions and keystrokes (even macros) to the wheel buttons. And you can switch between single and dual-axis pedals in software without rebooting or recalibrating. In future driver versions, this will be tied to each game. Once you set it, it will be automatic.
The biggest knock against the Wingman Formula is the pedals. The springs are too soft, and the travel is a bit short for GPL. The base is nice, though, and it stays put better than any of the TM pedals I've tried. The pedals are OK with the addition of stiffer springs, and indeed are not bad as-is for most everything but GPL, which requires more pedal accuracy than anything else. They use simple coil springs, which are easy to round up. In the end, I just removed the Logitech wiring and plugged it right into my CH pedals, since I already had some, loved 'em, and it was easy to do.
One problem I did have with my wheel, which may not show up on all, was a bit of slack between the pot and the steering shaft, caused by excess clearance in the plastic collar that mates the two. It gave a bit of lag whenever I changed directions with the wheel, made very obvious since I'd long ago set the deadzone to zero in my dinput.dll file. While it required disassembly of the wheel, a tiny bit of epoxy putty closed the gaps completely and eliminated the lag. Of note: Logitech uses three dabs of silicone to stabilize the pot, not relying solely on the tab that secures it; a nice touch. With the modified rotation and precision of this setup, I can run my linearity slider at full-left, or within a couple of millimeters (depending on the day's caffeine intake:-)).
A final observation would be that the guys at Logitech provide excellent support. They follow r.a.s., as well as the forum on Force-1.com, and offer help and advice promptly and freely. Our suggestions have ALREADY found their way into the product. We'd all be better off if the rest of the industry were as responsive.
In sum, a really nice wheel, particularly at the price point. I'd been really disappointed in all the new wheels I'd tried, and was about to splurge on a TSW2, but just couldn't abide the combined pedals. It took a little tweaking to get the Wingman Formula just right, but then it WAS $150 less. Well worth the effort.
PEDALS:
1) Spring Changes (a good first step, and quite effective)
Flip the base over, remove the screws, and take off the bottom. Take the brake spring to a hardware store or such, and find a significantly stiffer spring of similar diameter. They seem to be fairly common. Don't worry about the length, as you can cut it to fit. Just be sure when you cut it that it doesn't coil-bind before you get full pedal travel. Put the new spring under the brake pedal, and put the OEM brake spring on OVER the OEM throttle spring (it's larger in diameter). Reassemble and go racing.
2) CH(std.)Pedal Conversion
Basically, you just unscrew and open up the Logitech pedal base, unplug the wires from the two pots (three each) and remove the cable, then plug those same wires into the pots on the CH pedals, which you've likewise opened (base plate and pedal covers) and removed the wiring from. Simple wire-swapping, really, with the following fine points.
Make a note of the respective wiring hookups on both sets before you remove anything. That way you'll have a reference for what goes where, and you can revert later if you want to. The Logitech brake pot has three plug-in wires; blue orange and yellow. The throttle has three also; green, red, and brown. (viewed from the topside of the pot, opposite the shaft) The CH is slightly different due to the two-way switch, but no matter. Just draw it or write it down.
You can forget about the switch on the CH pedals for single/dual axis; you don't need it now. Just leave it alone and keep the whole CH harness as-is, in case you ever want to revert. On the Logitech cable, all you have to do is remove a few inches of the outer cable sheath (being careful not to cut the inner wires) to be able to route the appropriate internal wires into the CH pedal pods and slit and remove the rubber plug around the cable that seals up the pedal base so it can be used again if needed. You'll also need to "V" out the first couple of slits in the CH base where the tiny wires run through, so you can get the bottom cover to fit over the Logitech cable, unless you remove the outer cable sheath that far back. I used a really high tech serrated kitchen knife on the base.:-)
Once your wires are prepped, just route them into the CH pedals just like the CH wires were done, with the Logitech brake wires to the CH brake, throttle to throttle, etc. NOTE: You have to reverse the order of the brake wires from how they came off the Logitech brake pedal pot, as where it had rotated clockwise, both CH pots rotate counterclockwise. The wiring order for the gas pedal pot stays the same as it was. You'll have to bend the little plugs 90 degrees like the CH ones were, so the pots will sit properly in their happy homes as before. Note how much nicer the CH pots look? Hmmmmm. Once you're all connected, screw the covers back on that sucker, hook it up, boot up and calibrate.
WHEEL:
Increased Rotation:
The standard wheel uses two riv-nuts as stops. They're mounted on the metal plate inside the wheel base, with slices of plastic tubing around them that contact a collar on the steerer shaft. As delivered, they give about 190 degrees of rotation, lock-to-lock. To increase the rotation to about 270, you need only remove them and place a new stop of at least equal diameter directly between the two. The job requires disassembly of the wheel & housing, drilling out and removing the two riv-nuts, drilling a new central hole in the plate, and putting a bolt of some sort back in, with one of the original tubing pieces (or a substitute) around it. I used a Campagnolo bicycle chainring bolt that I had handy, but anything of similar diameter and length to the riv-nuts will do. Improvise! You could also use two stops, spaced more closely than the originals, if you didn't want as much rotation. The steps are as follows:
1) Remove the wheel by prying out the center cap, unplugging the wiring connector, and taking off the nut and washer. The wheel then slides off. When reinstalling, don't overtighten the nut, as it will cause stiction and it doesn't need to be very tight anyway.
2) Remove the top of the base by removing the six small silver Phillips screws and prying the cover apart.
3) Then remove the bottom by taking out the ten larger black screws and unplugging the two wiring connectors and ground-wire screw.
4) The metal front plate is held to the plastic backside that houses the pot by several small black screws. Remove them and separate the pieces, as you don't want drill shavings in your pot! Be careful with all of the smaller screws. They thread into plastic, so don't strip them on reassembly.
5) Drill out the riv-nuts just enough to remove them.
6) Determine the center-point between the two riv-nut holes and mark the spot for the new stop with a punch. Make sure to raise it a bit so that it's the same distance from the center of the steerer shaft.
7) Drill the new hole to the proper diameter, depending on what you've chosen for your new stop.
8) Install the new stop, using one of the plastic collars you removed on it, or some substitute of your choice.
9) Reassemble, calibrate, race!
Increased Spring Tension (optional):
1) After step 4 from above, remove the 2 Allen bolts that anchor the steerer return springs, and remove the steerer shaft. 2) On one side of the plastic housing you removed in step 4 above, there is a small rectangular opening that the wiring was routed through. On the lip of the housing, just below the opening, is a locator pin (one of three) that helps to align the housing. You are going to use this pin's corresponding hole in the metal front plate as a new hole for that side's spring anchor bolt. To do so, you have to cut out the rectangular opening in the housing all the way, removing the piece that contains the locator pin. The other pins, in concert with all the screws, provide more than enough security. Make the opening slightly larger to ensure clearance for the spring. 3) Drill out the pin locator hole just enough to allow the anchor bolt to fit. 4) Carefully measure and mark a spot on the opposite side of the steerer from your new spring anchor hole, and drill it out. There are no clearance issues on this side, or housing bits to cut.
5) Reassemble, calibrate, race!
Steerer-Pot Fit:
The plastic collar that mates the steerer shaft to the pot may not fit as tightly as it should, leaving some slack in the mechanism that translates into lag when you reverse direction with the wheel. It feels just like a center deadzone but occurs at whatever steering angle you happen to be at when you change direction, typically just post-apex. This is likely a price-point related QC issue, and may not affect all wheels. If yours does it, all you need to do, once you've disassembled the wheel as described above, is use something to close the gaps in the fit. I used a VERY small amount of epoxy putty, some on the half-round tip of the pot shaft and some on the opposite side of the collar where it mates with the steerer. Then reassemble and allow enough time for hardening before using the wheel. You could use a somewhat more pliable substance, as there is very little pressure involved; it's just a matter of reducing tolerances. Whatever you use, be sure to apply as little as possible, and reassemble the parts before hardening occurs, as you want the putty/etc. to conform without restricting movement. You may notice some slight initial stiffness upon first using the wheel after doing this mod, but unless you overdid it, it will be perfectly smooth in a day or so, and WAY more precise.
A bit of news about the centering glitch I mentioned with the Logitech wheel. Turns out it's not a problem with GPL. It's caused by some old code in the Logitech driver, a rather clever algorthm originally intended to solve the problem of drifting data from analog joysticks. Whenever you leave the wheel still for 10 seconds, it resets its center. On purpose. Outside of any calibration menu! That's why it always happened between menu screens. If the wheel wasn't left dead straight when you went to a setup screen or the like, when you got back in the car you'd have a skewed wheel. The immediate and simple fix is keeping that sucker lined up when you're not driving. I'm told the next software update, due around month's-end or so, will definitely solve the problem.
- Steve Blankenship
By Keith Findlay
The author’s interest was solely in using the wheel for Grand Prix Legends, a game that does NOT support force feedback. All comments therefore refer to the unit being used in an environment for which it was not primarily intended.
The product appears to be well made, and feels solid to use. The pedals work on a single axis, and so cannot support concurrent braking and acceleration. (If they do, then the mechanism for doing so is not well publicised!!)
The pedal pressure is very light. Too light for my own preference. The wheel is hard plastic, but well sculpted. I only found it a problem on full lock, possibly due to my largish hands. After half an hour, I no longer enjoyed holding the wheel, but this may be a highly personal view.
In Grand Prix Legends (for which the wheel was not intended by the manufacturer), I found the wheel a delight to use at eight tenths. I could drive a full length grand prix at this level without falling off anywhere. At ten tenths however, I couldn’t cope with it, and kept falling off in places where I don’t normally make mistakes.
If you have access to good non-force feedback wheels in your area, then there is no reason why you would buy one of these specifically for Grand Prix Legends. If on the other hand you only have the Thrustmaster range as an option, and you can afford the significant increase in cost, then you should at least try it.
If you want to know how good it is when used as intended, read another review!
The box and packaging are well designed to ensure that the product reaches you in an undamaged state. It is also relatively easy to repack everything into it again if you regularly travel around with it, say from your home to someplace where you can LAN race.
All of the marketing bumph on the box, and in the manual, concentrates on the wheel only. The pedal unit gets only a cursory comment or two. Nowhere could we find a mention of whether the pedals were single or dual axis support, without plugging everything in and actually trying it. This reinforces my suspicions that at the time of writing, force feedback is more of a gimmick, than something for the dedicated sim-racer.
In New Zealand, the only commercially available wheels up until the October 1998 were those offered by Thrustmaster. The Microsoft wheel both looks and feels significantly better made than the Thrustmaster products.
The rate at which Thrustmaster wheel/pedal units chew through springs and pots is well known throughout the sim-racer world. Only time will tell how reliable the Microsoft wheel really is.
The pedals feel well made and progressively sprung under your fingers. The wheel is sculpted from hard plastic. It fits nicely into your hands, and everything falls easily to fingertip control, even to large hands like mine. Things are of course, a little less easy on full lock.
Very straight forward, providing you have your games port correctly configured for midi use. I have a Soundblaster 16 in standard configuration, and had no problems. I have read on the net that people have had significant problems with the Sidewinder joystick range when their ports were not as Microsoft expected, and the wheel will be the same.
Note that the pedals plug into the wheel unit, with a small round plug that won’t fit into a standard games port.
Setting up the device is straight forward in Direct X 5.2 (which comes with it).
The clamping mechanism is elegant and effective. I had initial doubts about it fouling my legs, but after the first five minutes forgot all about it.
Calibrate it using the direct input option. It is at this point that you find out that the pedals share a common axis, denying you the ability to accelerate and brake at the same time. For dedicated sim-racers, this is the first major disappointment. On the other hand, gear shift paddles plus six other easy to access buttons mean you never have to take your hands off the wheel. Gear changing is easy and 100% reliable.
When used with Grand Prix Legends, the wheel will not of course be able to do what it is designed to do, namely respond to changes in surface, jiggle when you hit a kerb etc, but it does offer two modes for non-force feedback games.
Mode 1 is with the power switched off. The wheel can simply be turned with no resistance, and no self centring. I gave this up pretty quickly, partly because it was too difficult to be accurate, and partly because something in its construction made the wheel seem to accelerate away from the centre when you turned it. In other words, the forces are the opposite to what you expect.
Mode 2 is with the power on, where the wheel servo motors simply provide stronger resistance the further you go from centre. Initially I didn’t like it, as the servos seem to use some degree of intelligence even without the force feedback capability in the game. This meant that the wheel felt inconsistent during rapid lock changes, making precision difficult.
Having persevered for a couple of hours however, I began to appreciate it more. Provided I drove smoothly, the wheel enabled me to be very precise and consistent, returning multiple lap times at Zandvoort, all within one or two tenths of each other.
Driving at eight tenths then, was pleasurable and easy. The wheel instilled a stronger and stronger confidence as the laps rolled by, better than any other product I have used to date. It would be an excellent tool for a newcomer to learn the tracks and game.
It’s a bit different however when you press on to ten tenths. My style changes when I’m pressing on hard, requiring faster lock changes, and more of them. Look at Mr. Kaemer’s replay at Rouen that comes with the game. See how rapidly he flicks the wheel around, and you’ll see what I mean. I couldn’t come to terms with the messages I was getting from the wheel at this level, and was frequently caught out.
A better driver than I may feel differently, but I found it extremely difficult to drive the car on the limit with this wheel. To put numbers on it, using a Mach 2 joystick and CH pedals, I can regularly turn in Zandvoort laps in the 1:29 - 1:30s. With the Microsoft wheel I can turn in laps of 1:32 .1 to 1:32.3, for an hour or more without problem, but crash when I attempt to go any quicker.
After half an hour or so, I also found that I ceased to like the hard plastic rim of the wheel. It became uncomfortable, and a distraction. I also found that although the rim sculpting is really well done, it was a bit of a nuisance at full lock. This may have to do with my hand size rather than the wheel itself.
The pedals are well made, and slip less than others I have tried. Their springing is very smooth and progressive, but too light for my preference. I had to concentrate more than I wanted on the pressure being applied, than if the spring was say twice the strength. They are also of course unable to brake and accelerate concurrently, which is a serious disadvantage in GPL.
After installation and reboot, I tried to start GPL. It locked up before getting to the initial options screen, something I have not encountered before with GPL. Another reboot, and the problem has not recurred. The next time I started my PC and switched on the Wheel, I couldn’t get the thing to centre properly. The servo motors insisted that straight ahead was with the wheel around 10 - 15 degrees to the left of centre. A number of power off/on at both wall socket, and at wheel itself eventually cured the problem. I am told by others, but cannot confirm, that this effect occurs sporadically when moving from one game to another with the wheel. No other problems.
- Keith Findlay
by Peter Gagg
I have to comment (read that as disagree) on your recommendations for wheels and GPL.
I realise each person has his or her own preferences, and different pc peripherals are judged subjectively, but I must say that (in the UK anyway) Thrustmaster wheels would probably come a close fourth, after my suggestion for third spot?
You list your preferences as 1) ECCI 2) TSW and 3) Thrustmaster wheels. However, I feel there is a wheel that is on the same quality level as the TSW wheels, and are much better quality than the Thrustmaster wheels.
I have an old T2 which still serves me well, and I therefore have experience of, and would happily recommend Thrustmaster as good value wheels. However, they are not what I would describe as serious simracing kit!
The wheel I am comparing to a TSW is the F1 Sim (not the newer F1 Sim compact). I've had mine for about a year and a half and it has never let me down. It is constructed of steel and is very sturdy in construction. The pedals are based on real F1 pedals, and the angle of rake is adjustable, as is the pedal resistance, and one pedal can be made dominant over the other.
The pedals can also be configured for split axis on the accelerator and brake.
The steering column is also steel, and the (removeable) wheel is a genuine "Mountney" leather clad racing wheel, with F1 style shifters behind the wheel, and two buttons on the front of the wheel. Two simple desk mountings are available and the wheel can be connected or disconnected from your desk in around 5 seconds.
This wheel was originally manufactured (by hand) by a company called Interactive Racing in the UK, (now called Ballracing Developments) but they have now licenced Digital Edge to manufacture the wheels.
I am not associated to this company in any way (apart from being a loyal customer) but feel this is a quality product that doesn't get much press.
If you want more info on F1 Sim wheels, or any of the other excellent products (you can actually buy a full sized replica of an F1 car from them for around £2,000.00!!!) from Ballracing please contact:
Or e-mail:
Mine cost me £220.00(UK) just over one year ago, they can now be bought for around £150.00(UK) which equates to about the same as the TSW? ($250.00(US) roughly?)
If you ever do get the chance to try one, have a go, they have a great *feel* to them, which as a racing car driver, I'm sure you would appreciate.
by Steve Blankenship
I just returned a std. R4 to Saitek. You might not want the same things I do, so I'll be specific; forgive the long post and note this is the non-FF model. My previous experience has been with a TM GP1 which I now use with CH pedals and travel mods per Alison Hine(see her site), and a TM Nascar Pro that I returned after a tryout due to the unstable pedals. (haven't seen the MS wheel)
As to the R4, I wouldn't agree that it's a cheap toy. I'd use the Mad Catz or V3 wheels as examples of such. The R4 is a quantum leap above that, a pretty intricate design in fact, moreso than similarly-priced TM products. Whatever else you say, its build quality shouldn't concern anyone; not at this price point.
My reasons for returning the wheel involved the pedals, the steering, and some technical concerns:
Pedals:
The base is small, causing them to rock under foot. They didn't slide on my fairly-thick carpet, but tilted and moved around too much for me. They come with some non-slip pads for hard floors, but they're not pre- attached or labeled, so some who've had slipping problems may have missed installing them. The angle, resistance, and travel was good for me, but that's preference. In comparison, I preferred their action to the Nascar Pro pedals. If the base had a larger footprint they'd be fine, and that could probably be sorted with a homemade wooden base, if you're inclined.
Steering:
More of a disappointment to me than the pedals, but not necessarily to everyone. I like a high degree of resistance in the wheel(TM & a stout bungee), and hoped the adjustable tension would allow me to find the right amount. Nope. As is, the resistance is Very Light, going from almost none to very little. At full-tight, I could still turn the wheel with one finger. Some people want this, as devotees of the CH wheels prove, and it IS easy to turn one-handed. In a similar light, the wheel has a definite, though light, center notch. I personally don't want a wheel that feels like a joystick, but again, some people prefer this. The accuracy DID seem better than the TM pot-based wheels, when I could use it(see problems). Note: what resistance there is has a slight over-center feel about 45deg. off center. Tension increases a bit, then falls towards full-lock, which is about 220deg., L-R.
Problems:
I use my wheel for CART(ICR2), GP2, GPL of course, and occasionally CPR . Of these, only CPR worked fully with the R4. It installed without trauma and calibrated fine under WIN95; all pedals and buttons accounted for. GP2 set up ok, but only recognized two buttons. CART didn't recognize it at all. GPL wouldn't even load(gasp), crashing with an invalid page fault error. I tried numerous combos of re-installs, re-calibrations, etc. with no luck. Back to the TM/CH setup and all's well. Emails to Saitek produced a suggestion to try the R4 in non-digital analog mode, which only offers single-axis pedals. This didn't interest me, as I use dual-axis pedals in everything save CPR, and I'd wanted the greater accuracy of the digital setup. I've seen posts of others using the R4 FF with GPL, so I don't know if my problem will be a common one. And I've since seen a few about problems with the MS wheel and N2, so some sims may have trouble with digital controllers.
In sum; you may like it if:
I can't say how common my technical glitches might be, but they don't appear universal. Saitek DID stand behind it and took it back (I bought direct-no local vendor). Just make sure you can return it if it's not satisfactory; good advice on any purchase.
by Steve Blankenship
Well, I'd have to say get it somewhere you can return it if you don't like it. I'd been looking for a new wheel, saw the SS at my local WalMart and had seen some happy posts on it, so I brought it home to try. I returned it, having several complaints, some minor, some less so. For reference, I've been using a GP1 with CH pedals and had a Nascar Pro for a few days before I returned it also. Picky! Forgive the long post, but here goes:
Ergonomics:
Pedals - While better spaced than the Pro, they were still uncomfortable to me. They're still very upright, though the photos on TM's website, and even on the box they come in show them at a much lower angle. Mistake, or misleading? You tell me. The angle causes your foot to slide against the pedal as you move it, as your foot and the pedal are moving in different arcs. And because of it, they still tend to tip up at the rear, on carpet anyway. On a hard floor they'd be fine. Wheel - Similar in diameter to the Pro, with a thicker, nice feeling rim. The paddle shifters are too short though, causing me to have to reach around the wheel to hit them comfortably with my medium-sized hands. Probably ok for long-fingered types, or those who go full Nascar and drive with the wheel in their face, elbows out. In addition, they're hard to hit unless you hold right at 3-9. I prefer 2-10, and they were hard to reach from there. For my taste, the wheel sat too low and vertical, more so than I could get comfy with; I kept wanting to saw off my chair legs to get DOWN there.. That's a preference item, of course.
Performance:
I had some troubles here. Primarily, the wheel I tried had a migrating center. After it was calibrated, the center moved around whenever you changed directions. Every straightaway found the wheel cocked at a new angle. My GP1 does this too, though to a much lesser degree, and was a big reason I wanted to replace it. More and worse? No thanks. Though this may be a QC problem, it surely isn't a new one with TM. Bad, bad TM!
On the plus side, the new steel shaft and bushings, with internal wiring, is much better than previous efforts. It's more solid and very smooth, with a lighter feel than previous TM wheels, and I'd guess about 220 degrees rotation. Setup was super-easy, but I don't think the new software tells you as much as the older methods about how the wheel's working. I used several joystick setup programs to look at it, even ditching the TM software and calibrating as a 4-axis, 4-button custom wheel. It wouldn't work as a 3-axis. All showed the problem with the centering except the new TM stuff. Hmmm. It set up and calibrated OK in GPL, GP2, and ICR2, but for a few glitches. GP2 only uses buttons 1 & 2 for the shifters, but the SS paddles are 3 & 4, with the left being 3, all the buttons/paddles being numbered in left-right order. No setup trouble with ICR2, but every time I started GPL, I got a calibration screen, and none of the previous control assignments were remembered. I only tried direct input, but it worked ok once I set it; it just never remembered the settings until I ditched the TM drivers and calibrated it directly under WIN95, losing two buttons.
If you get one without the centering problems and have hard floors, it could be alright. It is cheap. Just be sure you can return it.